This interview was conducted by India Madsen on September 27^th, 2022. 

Recently, I had the privilege of sitting down with Dr. Ruth Green. Dr. Green is a member of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy, an associate professor of Social Work, and Special Advisor to the Dean on Indigenous Issues, in the Faculty of LA&PS. We discussed insights on Orange Shirt Day, rethinking the idea of reconciliation, Indigenous pedagogy in universities, and the experience of Indigenous students at York. This interview has been edited for content and clarity. 

This introduction has been translated from Kanien’kéha.  

Orange Shirt Day refers back to the first-day-of-school shirt taken from Indigenous activist and author Phyllis Webstad as a young girl entering into the Residential School system. Since that time, orange shirts have taken on many layers of meaning for members of the Indigenous community. What does the orange shirt symbolize to you? 

First off, there is more than one Indigenous community, right? There are Indigenous communities. There are many Indigenous nations across this country, but then we are also in different communities. When we're talking about communities, we're not just talking about our solo identity as Indigenous people. We're talking about our identities as Indigenous women, as Indigenous Two-Spirited people, as communities of care workers and a whole bunch of other different things.  

For me, an orange shirt symbolizes somebody's willingness to learn and somebody's willingness to teach. You may not know the depth of why the residential schools impact Indigenous communities, but you're willing to learn. When I encounter people who are wearing orange shirts, who understand that it's more than just a day—it is actually a responsibility—I see them as somebody who wants to learn. You don't put something on your body and wear it for just a day, it's something you need to put into your heart. I don't get to put on an orange shirt one day a year and then stop the experiences of being an Indigenous person [for the rest of the year]. So, when I see people willing to wear their orange shirts, I see it as somebody who is, hopefully, willing to be educated and learn what they don't know, even if it's hard. 

On the subject of willingness to learn, bringing Indigenous pedagogy and ways of knowing into post-secondary education is one of your fields of expertise. Can you speak to the importance of integrating Indigenous pedagogy into all post-secondary educational philosophy, rather than confining it to a specific academic discipline? 

I'm a strong believer that Indigenous pedagogy—Indigenous knowledge, the knowledge of this territory—is something that can help, support, and grow relationships with those who have come to this territory. The way Indigenous pedagogy, or the way we teach, is not about hierarchy, it is about relationships. Relationships with non-Indigenous people, with other Indigenous people, with Indigenous people from global spaces. How do we build relationships? How do we reciprocally educate, meaning give and take, as we educate? Education is a gift and when someone is willing to do it, when someone is willing to learn, when somebody is willing to sit and have conversations, that's going to change our world.  

So, for me, embedding Indigenous knowledges and Indigenous ways of being and Indigenous pedagogy across the faculty is important because every degree we have—whether it be a professional degree or a liberal arts degree or a science degree—is tied to and touches Indigenous topics. We don't always see it, but how do we make it visible? How do we make it so that, as students, you're learning important implications of the relationship, or lack of relationship, between the Indigenous and non-Indigenous? How do we make it so that, as people learn, they learn holistically?  

So much of academia is just about your head. But where is that journey between your head and your heart? When you learn something, when you feel something, that's when it changes. And Indigenous pedagogy is about finding that change. 

Prior to the interview, you explained to me that you do not believe in the idea of reconciliation. Could you tell me a bit more about that? 

For me, the term reconciliation means "going back to a relationship," going back to something. Going back to a healthy, healing spot. There's never been a time in this space where Indigenous and non-Indigenous people as a whole, (as individuals, we could have great relationships) as communities, as entities, as nations, have had great relationships. So, there's nothing to go back to. Earlier [prior to the interview] we talked about the Two Row Wampum and how it was always said that the Haudenosaunee said to the Dutch in 1613, "you say, 'we'll be like father and son.' We say, 'let's stand like brothers.' And as long as the river flows, as long as the sun rises, we can travel down this river of life together." But everyone leaves out those [first] two lines. And those two lines showed a resistance to colonization. When settlers came to this space, they came under the Doctrine of Discovery. They didn't see us as humans. So, when we talk about reconciliation, there's nothing to go back to. We need to reimagine. We need to re-educate. We need to rebuild relations. And build relations that are equitable, caring, respectful and responsible to the earth and to those of us who have been here since time immemorial. 

Would you like to share a message or any words of advice for Indigenous students here at York who may feel disenfranchised or disempowered by the education system? 

Absolutely! So, when, a long time ago, I took the responsibility of being the academic advisor for Indigenous students at another university, it was one of my favourite jobs because my job was to engage and support Indigenous students as they went through university. And one of the things I would tell them is, first, you've not lost your language. You've not lost your culture. You've not lost anything. Those were intentionally taken from you. And this is a space where you get to say, “I am not irresponsible,. I don't know.” This is a space where you can find help and support to learn, and you belong here. And so, when we talk about people losing Indigenous culture I say, 'we didn't put it down by the side of the river and forget where we put it’. It was intentionally taken. That's the first thing I remind them of. The second thing I remind them of is that they're here for a holistic education. They may be learning, as you are, finance or professional writing, but they will need to do a double learning to ensure that if they are doing professional writing, that writing is reflective of who they are in their communities, right? So, I always acknowledged that it was going to be a challenge because they had to learn twice as much. And then, I'd remind them that they belonged and that they are their ancestors' very best dream and our descendants' greatest hope. And I say that to ad-nauseam to my colleagues and to my Indigenous students, but it's true.  

They tried to annihilate us. My grandfather was in the residential schools and my grandmother was in the sanitariums. I shouldn't be here. I have a commitment and a responsibility to those behind me to make this place safer, to make this place more inviting, and to make this place accessible. And so, for Indigenous students, you are our ancestors' very best dream and our descendants' greatest hope and I'm very proud of you. 

Niá:Wen [Thank you].